This is astounding. The ITF simply does not care that two years of their anti-doping statistics are in a questionable state of accuracy. Without explaining the differences the data is useless for analytical purposes.
Do they care about credibility at all? Based on their response, how can we be sure any of their data are accurate, especially 2010 and 2011?
I'm curious as to why someone would have two blood samples at once.
ReplyDeleteI was wondering the same thing. Of course, for all we know the ITF could be wrong about that, too. Maybe the ITF mistakenly put in the same date twice. We don't know.
DeleteDoesn't Ana Ivanovic work with Novak Djokovic's quack doctor now. If so, I can already see the massive improvements in her performance.
ReplyDeleteLooks like you're correct: http://www.smedia.rs/sport/vest/49699/igor-cetojevic-ana-ivanovic-novak-djokovic-Ana-otela-doktora-Noletu.html
DeleteI think it's just a gossipy speculation, concerning the quack. There's lot of that sort of rubbish in Serbian press. Ana is no joker. And I wouldn't jump to conclusions based on her "massive improvements". The girl has always had the talent and the weapons, but fell into a hole after playing for a long time with thumb-problems, losing matches because of it, and then losing confidence because of too many losses. Nigel Sears is a master class coach - just look what he did for Hantuchova, a considerably lesser potential. Let us not get impressionistic (again), please.
DeleteMel - here it is all about shooting first and asking questions later. Only one player is not above question.
DeletePathetic response by ITF; Don't they realize that lack of reporting consistency speaks to speculation and controversy on what may be happening? Instead of putting the kabosh on this they conflagrate it with that sort of rhetoric
ReplyDeleteWhy should the ITF worry? The press isn't touching the issue at all. There's been zero coverage of the 2010 and 2011 stats that were released two weeks ago.
DeleteSo interesting to read the conjecture. As head of the ATP's Antidoping program from 2001-2005 and head of the Australian Sports AntiDoping Authority from 2005 to 2010 maybe I can help dispell the conspiracy theories and outline the true challenges of keeping sport doping free.
ReplyDeleteRichard Ings
We welcome your insight, Mr. Ings. We can also discuss via e-mail (see the "Contact Us" link).
DeleteFirst of all, if the ITF has an Antidoping program, why would the ATP need to have one as well? And the WTA? Is there some overlap of responsibility?
DeleteTennis has one integrated anti doping program. Until 2005 ITF, WTA, and ATP ran aligned but separate program's. From 2005 onwards there was one program run by the ITF for all of tennis.
DeleteYour choice of phrase "keeping sport doping free" suggests that doping is under control. This view would contradict the general feeling in this blog toward professional tennis. Have you been following the arguments presented herein? How can you be so optimistic?
DeleteKeeping sport doping free is the goal. We all want doping free sport. The challenge is getting there. It is a constant battle between those charged with deterring and catching cheats and those taking doping substances or aiding those that wish to take doping substances.
DeleteHundreds of athletes get caught doping every year across all sports. And next year will be the same.
It would be naive to suggest that every doping athlete can be caught. If an athlete takes one course of a doping agent that clears the body in 2 hours to overcome an injury then no anti-doping test will discover that today.
But if we freeze that sample who knows what technology will uncover that doping in the future. Or if we operate a hotline for informants who knows what member of the entourage, or doctor helping that athlete may tip off the authorities. Or if we work with law enforcement bodies, who knows when the assisting doctor may come under the radar for clinical practice issues and his/her database of doping patients revealed.
I'm concerned about the possibility of a conflict of interest.
DeleteDoes the ITF really invite the possibility of exposing any of it's most marketable players as cheats? Obviously, they want to preserve the respectable image of the sport but you can't have your cake AND eat it , can you?
@Richard Ings. "If an athlete takes one course of a doping agent that clears the body in 2 hours to overcome an injury then no anti-doping test will discover that today."
DeleteMr Ings, thank you for responding to our questions. Isn't that comment above the essence of the problem, that if an athlete is determined to to beat the testers they can?
Richard, your suggestions for new ways for taking up the battle are excellent but is there the WILL to do any of this?
DeleteWe are being told less and less about what's going on. That's why thinking people speculate and that's why it looks like a conspiracy to some.
The ITF are mistakenly treating the players as if they were their customers. They don't realise that it's the public that is paying for all their wages and the public has the right to know whether what they are seeing is real or fake.
Well, it appears Mr. Richard Ings had quite the presence on message boards back in 2002: http://www.network54.com/Forum/116888/message/1027184161/Response+to+Questions+about+anti-doping+in+tennis
ReplyDeleteYou wonder how people who are supposed to be some of the fittest humans in the world i.e. athletes could go through this
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17417973
To be fair, some people have congenital heart issues that aren't discovered until something like this happens, regardless of their fitness level. There are also other possibilities beyond PEDs such as cocaine use.
DeleteIt's always a great day when Novak Djokovic loses.
ReplyDeleteThe day's greatness has just been doubled!
Deletedon't worry, when Roland Garros comes around, Super Novak and MegaPumped Rafa will be back!
DeleteDjokovic and Nadal actually appear to be human this year. Both have run out of gas since their marathon final at the AO. On the other hand, Federer doesn't look human anymore. Since the French Open in 2011. He has an 89% winning percentage and has won more titles than Djokovic and Nadal combined and played more matches than anyone on tour. While many people here and elsewhere question Djokovic and Nadal, I think no one is paying attention to the elephant in the room. At 30 years old, Federer looks quicker, faster and better than two other players 5 years younger than him.
Delete@ Sekar:
DeleteOr it's possible that these two, when playing as 'normal' humans can't beat Federer? Has Federer suddenly upped his service speed? Has he been running down balls like a jack rabbit and sending back with interest? Has he played 5-6hr matches in these past few months? Is he dominating because of his endurance?
What exactly do you mean by "Federer looks quicker, faster and better than two other players 5 years younger than him."?
Great response Kenny. We all start looking like a bunch of conspiracy nutjobs when we just randomly start accusing pro-players without real basis. I believe that the general consensus here is that R-Fed is clean. The man just has impressive form and many teaching tennis pros will refer to R-Fed when they show the proper way to groundstrokes and forward movement.
DeleteThe comments above show exactly why a lot of folks don't take this site seriously. The blatant bias in favor of Roger Federer is very apparent here. To suggest that a nearly 31 year old player who is having a sudden resurgence in form after being out of it for over 2 years isn't suspicious is pure horseshit. When are a lot of you Fed fans going to admit that they are ALL most likely doping,including Federer? He is not immune to it,and I can practically guarantee that he has taken something over the years.
DeleteDjokovic and Nadal target the Slams, full stop. If they get to Masters1000 finals against each other then of course they want to win them, for psychological edge as well as for titles and prestige. Nadal loves his clay and wants to be remembered king of clay, so targets those masters as well. But make no mistake, both Nadal and Djokovic (and everyone else for that matter) would gladly swap winning Monte Carlo, Rome, and Madrid, for a single Roland Garros crown.
DeleteIf Federer, suspecting deep down that his Slam days are over, makes sure he mops up the non-slam tournaments that these two are "winding down" on, then he'll gladly take what titles he can get. No one can say Federer is looking better than Dopervic and Nadal on the basis of the WTF and a Masters or two. If Federer was really playing better than them, he'd beat Nadal in Australia, or beat Djokovic at the US (nearly did, admittedly, but only until Novak finally found his true form he'd shown all first half of the year). The top two, at their peak, are almost unbeatable.
Clark-man, welcome back from under your bridge, or should I say... from the Gutter, lol.
DeleteBDS is exactly the kind of Fedtard I was talking about,and he certainly failed to prove me wrong. One is not allowed to say a single thing that may implicate Fed on here,even if it is warranted. Thanks for proving my point,BDS with your silly ad hominem attack on me. Bravo.
DeleteClark-man, as usual, you miss the point completely. This blog has no place for fanboys OF ANY PLAYER. Stick to the mainstream sites if you want to argue with the other 13-year olds about which player is the GOAT. You did much better with your inane posts of "Feddy's vision-enhancing drugs and ball-attracting strings" or your petty attacks on "Djuiceovic". At least those provided some "Dandy" entertainment. I'd love to debate with you more, but your arguments are becoming "Bore"-ing. And thanks for proving MY point.
DeleteI agree, AndyMugray - but there is hope: dope takes it's toll, sooner or/than later. Even Nadal seems to have come to the point where he cannot use the stuff throughout the season, let alone the physically more fragile Jock.
ReplyDeleteI have a questions for Mr Richard Ings. Can you provide an opinion on this: Novak Djokovic, starting, January 2011 went from perennial #3 to nearly *unbeatable* world #1, possibly the best form of any player ever, in the space of a month. Now, given that doping control supposedly targets players with a sudden increase in form (or with mysterious injuries etc), why was Djokovic only tested "1-3 times" (quite possibly only *once*, and even that test in October, the most meaningless testing time of all) during the entire 2011 year? Surely, if they are serious about catching people, they will look at sudden increase in form and target these players - if for no reason than to stop people like us, and a growing number of others, asking questions?
ReplyDeleteTo suggest that a nearly 31 year old player who is having a sudden resurgence in form after being out of it for over 2 years isn't suspicious is pure horseshit. When are a lot of you Fed fans going to admit that they are ALL most likely doping,including Federer? He is not immune to it,and I can practically guarantee that he has taken something over the years.
ReplyDelete=========================================
Federer might dope but, unlike what this site has been doing very well here, you are not providing any evidence here.
1 - Federer is not going through any resurgence. He won lots of things in 2009, and lost many very close matches in 2010 and 2011. It's not like he played crap in FO11 and USO 11. He was very close to win big matches too and this far, hasn't won a slam essentially due to lack of stamina.
2 - He plays the same from January to November and doesn;t got through those cycles the other top 3 do. It woudl be absurd to dope to win everything but fail at the slams! Maybe he is cycling down during slams..poor guy he's got his doping regime wrong. LOL!
3 - He beats Nadal when the bounce is low in 2 short sets (not requiring outstanding energy) and loses as soon as it's a best of 5 on bouncy courts.
4 - Reaching peak form at 30 is nothing abnormal. a lot of records are achieved when athlete reach that age. Fed's timing has improved. He doesn;t shank as much as in the past and that is down to his talent, not steroids or else.
Finally, yes I can live with the fact that Federer may be taking EPO but I would need more proof than your vague and wrong hypothesis above. And having played a bit of tennis myself,it's still pretty clear that if no one had been doping he'd probably have won 25+ slams by now cause technically and eye/hand coordination we have yet to see a better player out there.
Good try though.
People can write up a list of explanations for everything going on with Djokovic and Nadal as well. There is an obvious double standard by a lot of the commenters here who point out every DJokovic or Nadal sneeze as evidence of doping, but when it comes to Federer he's of course that rare case that can simply defy all the odds and do all the things no one else has never done without help.
DeleteIt's plainly obvious that many people here are Federer fans who never thought about doping until a guy with one big bicep starting beating their hero. The fact is, doping has been an obvious problem in the sport since the 90s and to think that Federer isn't suspicious as well is blind wishful thinking at best, and willful refusal to be objective at worst.
Exactly. The Federer bias on this site is obvious,and makes the site lose credibility. It feels like a witch-hunt against players that people on here don't like. Certain folks here can write a book if they like excusing Federer from the doping conversation,but the truth is he is almost 31 years old and is still able to beat or nearly beat the very two players this site mainly focuses on,both of whom are younger than him by more than 5 years each. I think it's time for Fed fans to admit to themselves that Fed is most likely doped up,too. It would be nearly impossible for him to keep up physically if he weren't on something himself. Now add in that he is having a sudden resurgence in form after having fallen off the map for more than two years,is highly suspicious.
DeleteNow I shall wait for the Fed fans to tell me there is no evidence to support that Fed dopes,even though there is nothing more than circumstantial evidence against the two players this site is always pointing the finger at. I think they all dope,and that includes the almighty maestro Roger Federer.
@Clark. That you think everybody dopes, including Federer, is empty opinion. Your evidence for a blanket generalisation? Oh yeah, if Nadal is doping then Federer must be, too. (We are all on it. Obama included.) That's deep.
DeleteRight on cue,Richard. This type of response was never in doubt.
DeleteAnd if my opinion in an "empty opinion" than what does that make all of the posts on here? I guess the only opinions that aren't empty on this site are those accusing everyone and their dog of doping except for Federer,right? This place may as well be a Fed fan site for all the worship that goes on for him here.
Again,the site loses credibility once people figure out that this is really a place for Fed fans to gather and piss and moan about everyone doping except for their deity. This place is the very definition of double standards. I would just like things to be fair,but they are far from it when it comes to Roger Federer.
Oh,and since everyone who has a sudden increase in performance is doped to the gills,could someone explain to me why Fed isn't being questioned since he has had the same type of resurgence that is looked down upon by the Fed fans on this site? Especially at his age. I know the answers I will get,but I am still curious as to how people will explain away his sudden jump in form.
@Clark. "Resurgence"? What total bullshit. Federer may not have won a slam since 2010 but he has been consistently at a top level of the game since then - his ranking confirms it. You also write total crap when you say this site lacks credibility because it isn't "fair" - as if fairness has anything to do with the facts - and most commenters (apart from pillocks like yourself) see many more obvious cheaters than the Swiss. Like your pal the Spaniard. Just check out French television satire. Boy, have they got it in for Roger.
DeleteIf, as you claim, this site "lacks credibility" it is because most fans are clueless about doping - or in denial - and think tennis is clean - Roger, Nadal, and Novak alike - and the tennis establishment appears happy that they think that way. So as usual, you are speaking only for yourself. Which is saying nothing worth anything.
Ask yourselves why there are Federer's fans in teh first place. Because he has obvious talent. Hecan make tennis look easy. Which is exactly what doping cannot really help.
DeleteTo argue that this forum is biased towards Federer is really a non-starter. We are here to discuss doping and provide as tangible facts as possible...such as being cyclical, being able to run for 6 hours with 10+ rallies in it. Federer winning 63 60 or 63 64 playing short rallies thanks to a diabolical timing doesn;t prove he is doping.
Again, if you provide tangible elements, we will certainly be happy to consider it.
I have to agree that there's a Federer bias on this blog. I'm not saying that he's a doper, but if he were to win slams again, he would become suspicious in my eyes, especially when I see how all the other stars of Federer's generation (Hewitt, Safin, Roddick etc.) have went on a massive decline in their late twenties. I know Federer has tons more talent than those guys, but at some point, age should catch up to anyone.
DeleteWith every record in the book, why the heck would Federer cycle up and dope for the ATP 500 and Masters Series tournaments but not the Grand Slams? If anything, this proves Nadal and Djoker are the ones doping. The only reason why Federer is able to win these tournaments is that Nadal and Djoker are not juiced to the gills.
ReplyDeleteConsider the following statistics. Since the 2007 Wimbledon final, here is the Nadal/Federer h2h:
Grand Slams:
Matches: Nadal 5-0
Sets: Nadal: 15-6 (71.4% of sets)
other tournaments:
Matches: tied 5-5
Sets: Federer 12-11
Why is Federer, the greatest Grand Slam player of all time unable to defeat Nadal in best of 5 sets anymore? Could it be that he doesn't have the stamina to play him for more than 3 1/2 sets?
I have always been fascinated by how easy it is to neglect available/observable facts and come up with a seemingly reasonable piece of rhetoric based upon this (unconscious, because subjective, I don't doubt) procedure - and ask questions dozens of times already answered.
ReplyDeleteFederer is hardly having a resurgence. A breakdown of his results since 2008 show he's been very consistent.
ReplyDeleteTitles:
2008: 4
2009: 4
2010: 5
2011: 4
2012: 3
Runner Up:
2008: 4
2009: 3
2010: 4
2011: 2
2012: 0
Semis:
2008: 3
2009: 5
2010:4
2011: 5
2012: 2
Quarters:
2008: 4
2009: 1
2010: 2
2011: 3
2012:
Earlier round losses:
2008: 4
2009: 2
2010: 3
2011: 2
2012:
Here are a few more stats that show Federer is not playing quite as well as it seems:
ReplyDeleteGrand Slams:
From 2004 to 2009, Federer made 20 of 24 Grand Slam finals (83.3%)
From 2010 onward, he has made just 2 of 9 Grand Slam finals (22.2%)
Federer started out 2-0 vs Nadal in non clay Slams. Since then, he has gone 0-3.
Federer started out 4-1 vs Djokovic in Slams. Since then he has gone, 1-3.
Also, consider the fact that since winning the Australian Open, the vast majority of Federer's titles have come during "garbage season"
-6 fall indoor titles
-2 post Aussie season titles
-Doha 2010
Meanwhile, he has only won two tournaments (Cincy 2010, IW 2012) held during the meaty part of the tennis season. This suggests that Federer can only win when Nadal and Djokovic are struggling.
My gut feeling, without looking up the stats, already agreed with these stats you produce. As I stated earlier and you stated here using more facts, Federer is NOT having some sort of "resurgence". Winning a few late season titles when the big two are "taking it easy" does not equate to a resurgence when you are losing to Tsonga and Berdych in slams at the same time.
DeleteFederer these days, like Murray, tends to grab titles when he gets the chance (i.e. when Djokdal is "preparing for next year"), like late in the season or last year's WTF.
I think Federer is targeting a top 2 ranking before to give himself a shot at another Slam. This is genius. Imagine this....
ReplyDeleteFederer somehow gets the #2 ranking prior to Roland Garros (he is only 825 pts behind Nadal)
The draw Gods put Djoker/Nadal in the same half.
Djoker and Nadal play a 9 hour semi final, with Djoker winning 41-39 in the 5th set.
Federer gets a cakewalk semifinal.
Federer wins Roland Garros.
That dude is smart!
haha. Yes it sounds smart. Until you realise that given the recovery ability of Dopael Nadal and Novak Dopervic they would still win a 5 hr French final even after finishing at 21:00 the day before in a 48-46 fifth set semi final marathon.
DeleteLOL! Or imagine this scenario at the US Open
DeleteFederer gets the easiest US Open draw in history, barely losing games en route to the final. He plays the first semi on Super Saturday.
Djokovic and Nadal play to 7-6 6-7 6-7 7-6 7-6 in the 5th, ending at 3:00AM.
Djokovic wins and beats Federer 4-6 6-3 7-6 4-6 7-6.
That is a pretty unreal example! OR, an even more ridiculous one, at the slower Australian open courts, Djokovic plays a 5 hour semi against Murray having to come back two sets to one to make the final, finishing at 00:40am Saturday morning. Djokovic plays Nadal in the final, who has had an extra day's rest after a measly 4 hours match v Federer on the Thursday eve. In the final Djokovic runs around brutally smashing the ball back and forth for nearly 6 hours and beats Nadal, the (artificial) king of stamina, 7-5 in the fifth, then has more than enough energy to rip his short off, beat his chest silverback style, and bang the advertising boards in front of his team in triumph!
DeleteNote : "Clark=ARF=Clarky21(ttwarehouse)=PhilosophicalARf(menstennisforums).
ReplyDeleteHe is an AVID Nadal fan, that is here for one reason only. To muddy the waters concerning Nadal's doping. He makes the exact same arguments, with the exact same tenor at many tennis sites.
In other words, the Bore is back! Well, I know what sort of IP-address-hiding software he uses, but I wonder what kind of stamina-enhancing stuff he is on. On second thought, though, obsessive fixation resulting in compulsory behaviour may do the job just as well.
DeleteLoon. Nutter. Idiot.
DeleteNothing more need be said.